Punishment Or Reward?

Punishments And Rewards Both Come In Many Forms, But In Todays World, Can We Have One Without The Other? Can Accepting Harsh Truths And Embracing The Pain Of Self Discipline Lead To The Ultimate Reward? Guest Thomas Williams Sits In To Discuss.

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Speaker B: What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of abstract audio. I'm your host, Amber Janae. And fair warning today's episode might trigger a few emotions, might push a few buttons, might ruffle a few feathers. Today we're on the topic of punishment and reward. How the world punishes us, how we punish ourselves and each other, and what true reward means to us today. That's what we'll be discussing with our guest here with us today. He's a 38 year old black man, entrepreneur, father of eight. Welcome to the show, thomas Williams. How you feeling today? King?

Speaker C: How are you? Thanks for asking. I'm all right. Feeling uplifted always.

Speaker B: I'm so glad to hear that. And thank you so much for coming on. When I thought on this topic, I instantly thought about you because you're an extremely hardworking black man in america, but you also have a personal connection, as well. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been through lately, a little bit about your story?

Speaker C: Well, from the time I was 16, should I say from when everything really started off, I was really a suburban kid that got scouted to a city school. And when I got scouted to the city school, I ended up getting shot. And when I ended up getting shot, it just turned for the worst in, like it was either get your hands dirty or continue on to be the smart kid and still have to worry about the things the kids getting dirty doing. So I just see how everybody has a turning point at points of times because I wasn't that type of kid and stuff at first. But when things happen to you, it make you turn into a different person. It makes you lose saying your focus of where you actually trying to get to or where you was trying to go.

Speaker B: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. And I know a lot of black men feel the same coming up under similar circumstances. And I hear you saying the reward for many black men is really just to stay alive, to make it past 16, to make it past 21, especially in a city like Chicago. It's so easy to lose your life out here and even easier to lose focus and forget the purpose behind the pain. And first things first before we really dive in, this is america. So I want you to know that this is a safe space, and if your feelings aren't heard out there, they are **** sure heard here. Secondly, I'm so sorry you had to go through that, but I am glad that you recognize that turning point in your life and have since taken responsibility and adjusted your perspectives. That's what we're all about here. Now, what I did notice and what I really liked is that you didn't frame the events like someone was out to get you. And that very well may be true in your case, but it certainly doesn't ring true in every case. Once again, this is America. So can we just agree that law enforcement is a corrupt and unbalanced system that targets black men specifically?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, because it hasn't been twice that I'd have been in jail just off the civil strength of being a black man in a hot area.

Speaker B: I know it and I hate to hear it. So how long did they give you? How much time did you serve?

Speaker C: They were trying to give me 24 years.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: They were trying to give me 24 years. I just gave back twelve. That was a real rough spot there, because it's more so, like that was my fourth gun case, you know what I'm saying? But at the same time, like I say, I'm just a firm believer in protecting yourself. Like I say, after I got shot, man, it's just more so of a safety zone, safety net, because everybody got one, and I'd be damned if I ain't the person with one as well.

Speaker B: You said better safe than sorry. Well, let me try to get you out of that safety net with a question for you and the listeners alike. Making people uncomfortable is one of my few joys in life. So, speaking of uncomfortable, what's your earliest memory of punishment? Was it the timeout corner in school? The chunk lab, being whipped across the room? Or was it like, your mama threatening, I brought you in this world, I could take you out.

Speaker C: The earliest thing I could remember, I think I was like four, five years old, trying to play with a socket. My mom told me not to, and I still went toward the socket. I was trying to do it anyway in her face, and she took my hand and sprained my hand real hard.

Speaker B: You felt that it made an impression on you. And no matter what it was, for everyone out there listening, I bet that punishment or empty thread or whatever it was, made an impression on you, too. And usually that impression sort of resembles fear, right? Your body remembers the fear or the pain of being punished. It's in our genetic code to remember those negative feelings. And I know for a fact that for black people in America, particularly, that same type of fear and pain has been passed down for generations, forever embedded in our collective psyche.

Speaker C: Yeah, but I believe in fear. But I don't believe in fear. But at the same time, though, I'm the type of person, the type of person that grew up learning differently. Like my first lawyer, Bill Wolf, he told me, he say, man, you want to know the reason why your lawyer always asks you to tell me the truth? I say why? He said, Because if you don't tell me the truth, I never know on how to manipulate the situation in order to make it work out for you. For one, you know what I'm saying? For two, it's more so of I never know on when to throw my gloves in because I don't know what pieces of evidence they might withhold. And I learned about I really like.

Speaker B: That you mentioned learning, because people always say that learning and teaching and education is key in making substantial, lasting change. And you're right. There is a certain aspect of manipulation and withholding the truth to it, like, as Pepper Miller would put, and she wrote a really good book I'm reading right now. We're in the time of the great Eraser. A lot of history, a lot of our history is being erased by people in this country. Like, over 30 states across the country have introduced bills to limit the discussion of racial history in a way prompted by the emergence of critical race theory as a subject of political fear mongering. And, like, over 300 books by predominantly black authors were also banned in the last few years alone. Luckily for us, and your lawyer may have told you something similar to this, too, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. We were there, and we're still here. And those feelings that fear the pain of injustice that's ingrained in every black person alive in this country today will not and cannot be erased. Although nowadays, a lot of people, it seems and I won't name any names, like to imagine that we can kind of scrub these things, these feelings from society. But not only that, in the same breath, it's like they want us to consider the result of that unjust punishment of the past as reward enough. Like, oh, we don't deserve reparations. We don't deserve to be rewarded or compensated for building this country. It's like they want us to be happy with our black celebrities that don't do **** but perform for them on their stages, happy with what little we had to fight just to call our own, happy with where we're at now. When in reality, the lack of punishment alone is not reward. And yet it's always like the darker parts of our nature, the darker parts of our past we'd rather ignore and suppress, or rather that this country would rather ignore and repress. And I mean darker, both figuratively and literally. You feel me?

Speaker C: For real? I don't believe in that ****. It's just a form of faction of when you talk about it, you knew better. Well, when you talk about it, you do better. That's all it is.

Speaker B: Exactly. It's hard to believe in anything anymore. I mean, dating all the way back to slavery or even the crack epidemic where the American government utilized and militarized and capitalized off fear and punishment and put its own citizens in direct danger in favor of its own interests. And it wasn't the first or last time. America needs to do better and to take it a step further. The question to me then becomes if we try so hard to ignore and suppress the lingering pain of unjust punishment in this country, can we truly move forward? And how?

Speaker C: No. Like I said before, you see how Jeff Ford instead of Ten stood tall and did what they needed to do. It was all about your team is as strong as its weakest link. It's as weakest player, you know what I'm saying? Because nobody had the balls enough to stand up. You know what I'm saying? That's all it was about, bro.

Speaker B: But of course, it's much harder to stand up when you've been pushed down for so long.

Speaker C: That'll always be the wrench to turn everything around because the white man trying to hold us down or he steady a while back and watching us sit like that. It's really not even about that in your mind frame. It's about that if you make it like that.

Speaker B: You're right. It doesn't have to be like that. I believe we are capable of moving forward as long as we can still acknowledge the pain of the past. We're all human, and we do have the power to adjust our frames of mind, if nothing else. But punishment and pain are both large parts of the human condition and a bigger part of our collective history. And even like to take race out of it. Like the Salem witch trials were considered a form of justice way back when they drowned and burned people at the stake. Or even taking it back to ancient Egypt. My personal favorite an eye for an eye. Or dating back to ancient Rome, when crowds happily gather to watch gladiators fight to the death awaiting the emperor's thumbs up or thumbs down signal or say, the Spanish Inquisition. I could go on. But no matter what the era, what the context, you still have flawed people making flawed choices about equally flawed people and their equally flawed mindset. It's the popcorn, the kettle black, and our routes of punishment today are just equally ****** up, in my opinion. Look at the prison system. And with that being said, what do you feel motivates us to judge others anyway? What is it with us humans? Because we are all human at the end of the day that makes us feel like judge, jury and executioner sometimes. Why do you think we take that stance when we're such imperfect beings as it is?

Speaker C: The only people that I really see that judge other people are the weak. I think they are the weak myself, you know what I'm saying? Because a strong person, it takes a lot to be strong. You know what I'm saying, but all you got to do is learn how to play your role. Everybody has a job, and if you knew how to play your role in this job, everything would go ahead a lot smoother.

Speaker B: I agree. Weak people, in my opinion, judge others because they judge themselves so harshly. But at this point, I wouldn't really put anything past anybody. I just find it sickening that the real people we need to worry about, the real people running this world, are the most disturbed and some would even say deserving of punishment. But in my opinion, as people, we're so affected by the pain that's been inflicted on us previously that we're at a point where we're frozen in that fear, frozen in the status quo, that fear of losing the little that we do have if we were to stand up.

Speaker C: I really don't believe nobody needs punishment. I really believe that we're capable of.

Speaker B: Learning and changing and growing without it.

Speaker C: You know what I'm saying? For real. I'm seeing it a whole other way.

Speaker B: And speaking on humanity, I know lockup can oftentimes be such a humbling and dehumanizing experience for so many people. Would you say you feel more or less human after being released?

Speaker C: I felt more human after being released because it's more so I get into myself. I planted myself down to my roots and ****. I got clear the drugs and I found a different path. But when things died down and the smoke cleared and my head get right, I finally caught on to the things I was supposed to be doing once again and started developing. And that's when I started my business, like father, like son security company. And like I say, it's all up to you on how you play it after that. But I'm always cautious and keep on the swivel, but the whole time I never let my guards down, though, because I know who I am, I know what I did and I know where I came from.

Speaker B: And I'm so glad to hear that, really, just you standing in yourself and standing in your power, and I don't think any human is really fit for prison or lockup. Tupac said something like, the way he survived is that he knew himself, he stood solid in his will, and he kept his heart through all his stints. And I love Tupac so much. He's my Gemini brother, and he just wrote so much poetry in and out of the pen that spoke to that heart and his struggles. And I do believe the system is designed to keep your mind in a prison as well. But there is an aspect of confinement that I feel allows you to realize your best potential. Especially creatively, though, that's sitting with yourself and sitting with your thoughts.

Speaker C: Jail is more so. Like I tell my son, everybody that ever went to jail know why the hell they in jail. Ain't nobody in this joint innocent you might be innocent of a specific crime. But the thing is, think about it like this. Out of all the crimes that you don't ever slip through, *****, this is your time to do that. Time for that crime that you slip past life for real. For real. Every time I don't want to jail, I can hold myself accountable for every time I don't want to jail because I knew every time what I was doing when I put that gun in my hand.

Speaker B: I really love to hear you taking that accountability. And I feel like everyone can benefit from owning up to their **** like you have, especially when you have theories out here where some people like to say that the Earth is like a prison planet, that we've all done crimes in past lives that have landed us here in a type of hell cycle as punishment. But as you can imagine, that way of thinking can quickly lead to a negative outlook, lower vibrations. So I just like to take it as we're here to learn. Learn to be happy, learn to let go and everything in between. Life is so short in the grand scheme of things. And in the grand scheme of things. I like to think that even though we as black people have been targeted and oppressed, that no one's really out to get us. I don't think God or the universe or whatever you decide to call it, wants to punish us. I think it wants to teach us whether that be painfully or otherwise, and promote us to the next level of being, the next level of consciousness. To this point, yes, I do truly believe there is a greater power, but I believe it's truly working with no real regard for us to its own predetermined ends. It doesn't love or hate us. I don't believe the universe wants us to win or lose. I believe we're merely a part of it. And that fact naturally drives us to learn and grow just as it does, just as the universe expands. I believe we follow suit by expanding our minds and raising our vibrations. And honestly, on the same accord, I think punishment here on Earth should follow suit.

Speaker C: I believe the universe is just like a gang. The first question that a gang asks you when you come to this tape, what can you do for me? Why do I need you here? What access do you have for me? Because if you think about it, the universe needs us in order to grow. So if we're not smart enough to pick up on the resources that the universe already had here for us to even develop it to a new step and grow to a new matter, then the universe will never ******* grow. When they think about actions and reactions, they just think about actions and reactions. They don't think about what's after that. Nobody knows, really, what comes after that.

Speaker B: What do you believe in? Do you identify with a religion? I know a lot of people tend to fall back on religion when they're locked up.

Speaker C: No, I'm that guy. I'm that guy that don't even own the Bible.

Speaker B: That's funny, because if you're a Christian, they believe. Oh, God so loved the world, he gave and punished his only son, facilitated his death, his murder and many other murders just to turn around and ensure we're punished after the fact if we don't abide by his will.

Speaker C: That's a man made stuff in the game, when you get a violation, they supposed to come to you and they supposed to say something to you. It's called the statement of love. The statement of love is just to let you know that there is no harm, no foul in between, which we're from the Duke. You know what you did and you have to take this punishment. But the thing is, how can you tell me that you love me and still beat me and not just beat me, beat me brutally?

Speaker B: I like how you tie that in, because it's sad that some people associate suffering with love, especially us in the black community. We the creators of struggle Love. that ride or die **** that puts you through hell and back. And it's even sadder to me that some people think we have a God that would endorse that kind of love. Now, obviously, I'm not God. You're not God. But I believe we are God in that we are the universe and made of the same energetic material. Speaking on God, did you have any revelations while you were locked up? You know, a man has a lot of time to think in there. Did you have any breakdowns or breakthroughs?

Speaker C: Told my son growing up, I don't did all the gang banging and all that ****. Right? In the end of the day, it don't ever take for you to holler GD, Vice Lord Stone or any of that **** for you to be cool. All it takes is for you to get your own money, stand your education, get you a nice little whip, a nice little crib, and watch how the money and women float to you, I think. Watch how everything just revolve around you, bro. And he's been doing that ever since.

Speaker B: I know you have a couple of kids on your Nick Cannon raise a Village ****. How do you feel about punishing them? Do you do whoopins?

Speaker C: Sure. And I still ain't done.

Speaker B: I hate that people are moving away from disciplining your kids. And it's not just white people, it's people of color now. It's like, oh, I'm so progressive. I promote a hands off style of parenting.

Speaker C: You really ain't got to because I'm a smooth person. You know what I'm saying? I understand. By the time you 1415, you really start wanting to do this and try to that and the third what the bell? I'm going to naked. That's going to give you the option to help tell you all top G, if you can't keep up with school, Jimmy cut you off. Then what are we going to do here? That's because there's more than one way of discipline on the kid, bro.

Speaker B: ****, some kids need to be punished. ****, we as adults even need to be punished sometimes to improve. If we move through life with no fear or repercussions, **** gets reckless. And you don't really strike me as the reckless type, but still, my grandma.

Speaker C: My grandma always told us, if you raise your kids, you can spoil your grandkids. If you spoil your kids, you're going to have to raise your grandkids. So what they come to show you that my grandma raised us. And with me being 38 with a grandbaby, what they come to show you I'm more of a parent than I always was. And I'm the oldest, so I really didn't have no town for laughing giggles. Life really was like, I'm the oldest out of 13, you know what I'm saying? So my life really wasn't no laughing giggles, bro. I got seven sisters.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it really wasn't no laughing giggles. We was all like, for real. I'm the first, and it's five girls behind me. You know how many times I don't have my nose broke? You know how many times I don't have to throw a garbage can on a person? You know how many times I had my windows busted out? You know how many times I just had to go on break up a fight?

Speaker B: I'm not going to lie. That's a lot to carry, a lot of weight to bear from such a young age. A lot of responsibility, a lot of aggression. And on that same note, as an adult, did you ever punish yourself not to take away from your experience? Of course. But even when you say go live on your own, you kind of become your own parent. You kind of have to develop a method of self discipline. You don't have anyone telling you to do **** anymore, so you have to do it yourself. A lot of people skip that step entirely and end up living kind of reckless, right? They just out here with this kind of broken compass. Was that the situation you found yourself in? And did you ever find balance?

Speaker C: Well, I kind of found it when I got locked up when I came home and I found myself mentally as I got locked up when I was 17 and I came home when I was 20. That's when I really found myself, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker B: And you said you found yourself. Did you also find joy in that, or are you still searching for it? Because we can talk punishment all day, but happiness and joy and contentment, that's the true reward in life I feel. And I say or I call it a reward because I feel you truly have to work for it. Happiness is where you are, of course, but you have to find it. It's almost like you have to earn it. And people think you're entitled to happiness. But even in, say, the Declaration of Independence, they say every human deserves life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's a pursuit if you work for it. It's a reward in my eyes, anyway.

Speaker C: By enjoying it every day, every wake of moment that I see the work that I have passed along to my siblings as they are working it out in them, in their own lives, and it's working out for them. That's what I get my enjoyment out of, seeing it work for them, seeing them put the work that I gave to them to use for it, to work for them.

Speaker B: Oh, I love that. And that just made my heart so warm. And it was so nice sitting with you today, my friend. Go with peace and love and strength. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat and for being so real and transparent here. Are there any final words you want to leave the listeners with or any socials or anything you want to plug? If the people want to follow you.

Speaker C: Truth be told it's all about respect. You want more respect and loyalty than you want to make a person fear you. Thank you.

Speaker B: Okay, you heard the man. Respect yourselves. Respect your fellow man and woman. Respect your history. Respect your culture, Boldly and without fear, we moving from rewards and punishments to love and reason All 2023 y'all. And while you add it, be sure to check out our next episode. You know, we dropping biweekly like your paycheck. And until then, be sure to follow us on the Abstract audio show.com I hope this episode put some things in perspective and helped you appreciate the abstract in your life.